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January 15, 2007

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Lorenzo

Tax relief on pension contributions only defers taxation, it doesn't avoid it altogether. So the cost of private pension subsidies should take account of taxes on pensioner's income.

Thanks for the link by the way.

Michael

That is true but only up to a point. For instance, 25% of a pension pot can be drawn down tax-free. Therefore, someone with accumulated tax-supported savings of €1 million can take €250,000 tax-free.

Further, while pension income is taxed, a substantial portion is, of course, below the tax-free threshold, while significant sums are taxed at the standard rate even though the savings attracted the top tax rate break. There are also tax-free implications for PRSI levies.

Nonetheless, you raise an important point and information on the inter-action of pensions, tax and tax relief is limited. The Revenue Commissioners can only estimate the cost based on extrapolations of data. A full survey of this data would bring greater clarity to the debate.

Niall

To further develop Michael's point, additional tax relief is also granted to those aged over 65 by way of much higher increased exemption limits for those over that age.

In effect, a person could draw down 5% of the fund without suffering any tax. The exemption limit for a married couple for 2007 is €38,000.

If deferral was the issue, then there would be no problem. However, it would also make no sense to defer tax. At the least there is the aim to get relief at the higher rate, but pay tax at the lower rate.

There is also the issue of PRSI. Relief is given against both employee and employer Prsi.

Finally, the main reason for building up excessive pension funds,tends to be the avoidance of CAT.

Under McCreevey amendments, the balance at death is not taxable as income at death and then the net amount liable to CAT. Instead the balance is taxable at a flat rate of 20%.

The difference is huge. Assume a net amount left at death of €2,500,000. The income tax due would have been €1,025,000 and a further CAT charge of €295,000, leaving a net amount for distribution of €1,180,000. Instead, there is just a flat rate of €500,000 payable, a saving of €720,000.

Before there was a ceiling placed on these funds, it was reported that there were 2 'pension' funds with assets in excess of €100M. The saving for each of these funds is approx. €30M!

Lorenzo

Some valid and interesting points. I agree not all tax is deferred, some is avoided altogether by the combination of 'income smoothing' and greater tax reliefs for the over 65s.

I don't know if the figures are available from the RC but if it is accepted that any (or at least most?) of the income tax paid by retirees has come from their pension funds, then this figure should be deducted from the original 'cost of private pensions' as calculated by Michael.

I haven't done the calculations but I'm pretty sure saving 12% of income above €15K won't come within an asses roar of funding a pension of two thirds of final salary.

I should disclose that I am currently working for an international investment management company but only as a lowly techie on contract. Also they don't sell in Ireland, so I have no particular (work) axe to grind.

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