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November 10, 2009

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Proposition Joe

"throw more people out of work"

Strange, as I read it, Prof O'Hagan was arguing for precisely the opposite.

His preference is for maintaining public sector numbers while cutting pay rates.

The unions' preference is for maintaining pay rates while cutting numbers.

Which approach leads to more jobs losses?

The deflationary impact of unemployment among trained teachers and nurses probably stumps equivalent pay cuts, as the gross pay-roll remains the same, but we lose the opportunity to make thousands of welfare-receiving survivors into salary-earning consumers.

I know you'd prefer neither pay-cuts nor job-cuts but that's exactly the trade-off the social partners are discussing in Government Buildings this week. And going by the leaked IMPACT memo, there was no need to drag the unions kicking-and-screaming to the idea of job cuts.

Yvonne

Hi Michael,
Would be interested in your views on why ICTU day of protest didn't mobilise more in terms of moving beyond public sector pay/jobs angle to all those being threatened by a reduction in social welfare, miniumum wage, home re-possession etc., as well as impact of service cuts on users. Noting here a comment attributed to Noam Chomsky over on Indymedia: "does the population understand what tomorrows (ICTU) demonstration is about? Impressions of the audience at the Pat Kenny discussion about the demonstration, they seemed very split about it. This can be harmful, happened to the anti-war protests in the 60's with split to maoist cults and weathermen which turned into a gift for Nixon. People can understand taking over a factory. It's pretty straightforward. All tactics need to be adopted to the circumstance."

Alfie

Has anyone ran the numbers for a 20% public sector pay cut? Is it possible that a reduction in the public sector pay bill of that magnitude would result in greater net savings for the Exchequer after taking account of deflationary effects, etc.?

Tomaltach

It is pretty clear that we pay most of our public servants too much. Michael talks about 1% above 200k, as if that it is only above that level where we are paying too much. Right down to middle incomes we are paying too much - compared to private sector incomes and compared to our european neighbours.

True, there may be an economic disadvantage to righting this wrong now, and if I could be convinced that it was both better and possible to adjust later in the cycle I'd be happy to see it happen later.

But the private sector workers out there know how they compare, in terms of effort, skill, education, pay with people in the public sector. I would urge private sector workers in any doubt to log on to the INTO, GRA, Association of Higher Civil servants and all the other sites and do the sums. Then bear in mind the pensions, job security, and other conditions such as time off, sick days, etc. Then ask if you would like these rates to stay the same while YOU pay more tax. Make no mistake, for every euro the public service hold onto, it will be clawed back in tax. Whether the structural adjustment comes now or by 2014, it will come for we cannot continue to spend above the tax take on this scale.

D_D

Association of HIGHER Civil Servants how are you!

Bovale Developments is developing another shopping centre. Take the money off them and give it to Our Lady's Hospital, Crumlin!

Michael Taft

Yvonne - apolotgies for getting back so late on this. As to the success or otherwise of the ICTU strategy - I think it would have been helpful if the trade union movement could have reached a consensus on an analysis of our current economic and fiscal crisis and then presented that in a clear manner. The failure to do that has meant - as you have pointed out - that people don't quite know why they should be protesting against the Government's policies. Is it over the balance between spending cuts and tax increases? Is it because of wage reductions - private and public? Is it because of something more fundamental - that the idea of contraction during a recession is wrong in and of itself? These have not been fully debated within the movement and, therefore, there are considerable strategic and tactical gaps - gaps which employers and the Right have been able to exploit. An example of that is that ICTU's campaign has been protrayed as a 'public sector' thing - which it isn't. It's about all workers. Unfortunately, that has not come through.

Proposition Joe - I accept that's the trade-off being discussed. It's a dismal trade-off. We have neither 'too many' public sector workers (though, I'm will to accept that we may have too many in one section and not enough in the others - but I'd like to get concrete numbers and categories on that), nor are public sector workers paid too much - though I know you would dispute that. So we end up debate a more deflationary approach with a less deflationary approach - when we should be arguing for reflationary measures.

Tomaltach - you say that its pretty clear public sector workers are paid too much. But the recent CSO paper shows that male public sector workers enjoy a premium of 2.7 percent when Guards and defence forces are taken out of the equation. Women get a higher premium because there is less wage discrimination in the public sector. Now put that against the fact that Irish private sector wages are low in comparison with our EU peer group (between 12 and 18 percent below average).

As to interntional comparisons - do you know of any databases that present a comprehensive comparison of public sector wages?

Alfie - on a static basis, a cut of 20 percent in pubilc wages would reduce the borrowing requirement by 0.8 to 1.2 percent. However, it would reduce consumption by over 3 percent. In this respect, we could reach a tipping point - where the next Euro of consumer spending withdrawn has a greater cumulative effect. One of the factors in the recession is that private consumption has fallen at a rate of ten times the Eurozone average fall. That has had a devastating effect on businesses that rely on the domestic market (which is most). Do you really want to throw those dice? The small decline in the borrowing requirement might end up being a small increase depending on the dynamic of cutting consumer spending.

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