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December 16, 2010

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Helena Sheehan

Right on for left unity.

Mark C

Excellent rallying cry. I'm going to repost this on contact.ie.

Colum McCaffery

Michael,
I tend to agree but ...
Well, I criticised TASC in the past for being overly Keynesian in arguing for investment to return us to "normal" rather than seeking change.

I'm not an economist and I struggle to distinguish between leftist argument which simply seeks to create crisis and leftist argument which is feasible in itself.

You and I crossed swords before when I sought to define "rich" as much lower than is generally accepted. My problem is that unless "rich" is defined realistically low, then "taxing the rich", becomes no more than a slogan for agitation, which can't work in practical terms because too few people fall into the rich category. Most rich people define themselves as "middle income" and this abuse of language tends to pass in media without comment. Indeed many rich people will agree with your proposals because they genuinely think you are not talking about them but some category of even richer people!

Mark C

I define "rich" as anyone who is earning in excess of €100,000. That's almost 3 times the average industrial wage.

Michael, why don't you start picking up the phone and calling the necessary (left-wing) people to get the ball rolling here? You're perfectly placed to do it.

Jim Monaghan

With a SF/Labour fron absed on these demands it could work. I feel that Labour is losing inn the polls because people feel that it accepts TINA (there is no alternative). Rory Quinn explicitely said this.
My wish a SF/Labour gov. with backbone based on what Taft suggested esp. let the bondholders burn. Plus a strong showing by te United Ledt Alliance so that the Quinns and Adams have a left opposition to worry about and keep them on a left agenda

Colum McCaffery

Mark, I too usually put the figure at €100k but that's only to keep the screaming at a tolerable level; I could be persuaded to go lower. However, usually when I argue along these lines, I meet with strong resistance.I understand that a mere 5% of people are in this bracket. Now, if "make the rich pay" is to move beyond a slogan, it'll have to be make those above, say, €80k pay and if my (limited) experience is anything to go by, it will be wildly unpopular.

Tomaltach

Jim Monaghan,
I think the reason Labour dropped is not that they accept TINA (because FG rose and they are more committed to the FF template). The reason Labour fell is that their alternative plan published a few weeks ago was so weak : it was lacking in detail, and avoiding the hard choices. It looked amateurish compared with FG's much more fleshed out proposals which also spelled out plans for a full four years in some detail. In short, Labour stuck to Gilmore's approach: avoid committement, be wishy washy and hope to make enough populist soundings to rake in the middle voter. It backfired.

The other thing is this: no one believes Labour can substantially alter the shape of the 4/5 year correction required.

Regarding 'make the rich pay', Labour's third tax rate seems fair to me and I'm sure would have widespread support, but two features of this have to be recognised: a) because so few people earn over 100k this tax will make only a small contribution to fiscal correction. Labour estimates a few hundred million. And b) it's not like those on high incomes pay little tax: they do, and we always hear about the top decile who pay over half of all income tax. The real issue is to tackle exemptions and ways out of paying tax, in fairness, many of these are already being addressed by FF (belatedly of course).

In short, this issue about making the rich pay is great for headlines but is not where the bulk of the solution to our huge fiscal deficit lies.

Niall

There is clearly a 55%/45% split developing within the Irish political system. FF & FG and their gene pool independents have the support of approx. 55% with the Labour Party & Sinn Féin together with the Trot ultra left having the support of approx. 45%.

It is clear also that the Labour Party & Sinn Féin are not going to grow or develop without opening up to attract a much wider group of people, who traditionally vote for FG & FF.

Higher rates of Income Tax on salaried workers will not work. Indeed with the Social Charge the marginal tax rate is now 48%. The marginal deduction rate for Higher Paid Public Servants is now over 68%.

The approach taken by Joan Burton and the Labour Party, belatedly copied in part by the current Govt. in withdrawing tax based capital allowance schemes has been far more effective in making high earners pay more tax.

Reducing the ability to claim relief by way of a minimum effective rate has also been very effective. Though many of those ideas were rubbished by Frank Daly when he was Chairman of the Revenue Commissioners. He has subsequently been well looked after by his friends in FF.

Additional taxation can only come from removing further shelters on capital and not incomes. No self respecting business owner will currently declare more income than is completely necessary, preferring to keep capital sheltered.

The work done by TASC, Joan Burton and others, but particularly by Joan Burton at the Finance Committee have influenced policy development.

Sinn Féin have also never fully explained why they supported the Bank Guarantee in Sept. 2008. That guarantee was, in my opinion our death warrant. However I am led to believe that their deputies have never fully explained their actions to the Árd Chomhairle either!

Does anyone in their right mind believe that a Govt. dependent on the support of the SWP and friends would last very long?

Let us therefore develop strategies to attract those salaried employees who continue to vote for FG & FF by showing them that the Left can produce policies that will ensure their employment and work for their children. Empty slogans for National Strikes do not bring those employed in well paid employment, but with all of the normal worries that the rest of us have any closer to the fold.

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