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June 13, 2012

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Skirmish

Superb response. But will it get the same airplay on RTE as the one that suits the austerity hawks?

Hosen

Appreciate this post. Will try it out.

SOMK

"Irish childcare costs are the third highest in the countries surveyed here – twice the average level of costs and 5 times the cost in Sweden. A strong welfare state would have a universal low-cost public childcare system." Okay but the graph shows France as having higher childcare costs than Ireland, when as far as I'm aware childcare is free in France no?

Richard Tol

Thanks Michael

It is indeed odd that, in Ireland, primary, secondary and tertiary education are heavily subsidised while pre-primary child care is exceedingly expensive.

Our paper is brief on the policy implications. You might as well conclude that taxes etc on the low paid are too high.

Laura

"social organisations" - oh you mean those organisations who remain in existent and create nice jobs for themselves as long as poor people remain poor? The pro-poverty industry is a large part of the problem in Ireland, welfare dependency is reinforcing cycles of poverty and unfortunately government, particularly Labour, are terrified of having to take on the ire of both those and 400+ forgotten people plus others.

As for the report, there were huge flaws on it. From what I recall, Tol also damned the investment in wind energy despite the fact that we are slaves to external oil and gas producers and have no oil and limited gas of our own. His assertion of 11 euros for lunch alone drives huge questions about the accuracy of the report. Yes, a minority of people do not wish to work, but they are very much a minority and have chosen to live a very meagre lifestyle as a result. Many others really are going through hell. Keeping welfare high to cushion them from taking on lower paid jobs is reinforcing unemployability and deskilling because they do not work, which will only reinforce their long term lack of prospects.

Laura

Richard - the taxes on the low paid are still far beneath what they were in the high unemployment era and following 8 years. People did not simple stop working in Ireland because taxes got higher, in most cases they either never started work or lost jobs.

Where did the statistic of 35 euro per week on average on clothing come from for examnple? Even when I worked in Ballsbridge lunches were not 11 euro unless you went to a fine restaurant. There is something very wrong with many of the figures produced and using 2004/5 household surveys in 2012 is misleading.

Alex Wilsdon

The poverty experienced by some social welfare recipients only proves they are bad with money. The fact that so many do not experience poverty proves that rates are more than adequate. A direct provison model would soon show how generous €188 per week is although pubs and tobacco sales would be hit.

Jonathan

What an callous comment. The hostility and lack of understanding shown to the unemployed by certain people is sickening. Here's a comment left by someone who's unemployed at the Irish Times today: "Had an interview recently for a public service 9 month intern-ship under the jobsbridge scheme, apart from that, I have not received any replies to CV's I have sent ranging from banks to Aldi, to local shops to multi nationals. I have a business degree and five years experience but the best I can hope for is an unpaid job in the public service and the competition for such roles is massive. I can apply for one of the myriad of scam intern-ships washing cars for 39 hours a week or something similar. So I live on 187 a week in total, after rent and bills I have nothing and in most cases I still owe money. The report in my experience only serves to embolden the hang m high brigade and further alienates the unemployed - myself. Those lucky enough to still have jobs and in particular the public sector in my experience have little sympathy or understanding of the gravity of what's going on in the labour market. It is now clear to me that it is a race to the bottom for the majority. There are those drawing social welfare who are happy with their lot and that has always being the case, but in reality the vast majority of people want to work. I would do any work at the moment in order to protect my mental health, but I don't hold out much hope that my experience or education is of any value in the labour market any more. So because of reports like this which pointed out by turkeyforchristmas which has now become a petty isue among a few different personal interests, we become further marginalised and exploited. So if this article effects public opinion and further hardens attitudes towards unemployment and further cuts are made lives already at their lowest will have no lower to go only into depression and possible suicide which is already rampant. This in my experience and as a result is subjective in tone but many would agree, trying to remain objective in society at present is a struggle."
Source: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0613/breaking21.html

Shane Dempsey

I think the report is less problematic than the spin that's being put on it by a government that is planning to cut social welfare and other subsistence payments to the unemployed. The deprivation that Michael Taft is referring to has nothing to do with the differential between salaries in Ireland and other European countries (so-called competitiveness measures) and everything to do with the high personal debt of the majority of Irish people. Simply put, many cannot afford to put food on the table and pay their mortgages (even interest only). If we want to reduce average salaries and benefits then we need personal debt write-downs and regulation of indirect labour-costs such as childcare fees. However, these write downs will merely increase the rate of growth of non-performing-loans in our state-supported banking system. US-style chapter 7 or 13 bankruptcy would be great for individuals but problematic for our bust banks. It seems that almost 4 years into the crisis we have yet to tackle the ideological point of whether we protect the dignity and financial futures of our citizens or prop up our banks at all cost. Some will tell you the 2 points are related but for all but the lucky few with substantial savings, they are certainly not.

Alex Wilsdon

Social welfare is designed as a safety net for the individual. Not for the domestic economy. The notion that you should sustain it at high levels to help the domestic economy is utter nonsense. It's akin to a shpkeeper being their own best customer. It makes no positive contribution. Johnathon: emotion and economics have a few letters in common. No more. Does that person share a house? Do you know exactly how they spend their money? A letter to the Irish times is not a detailed analysis of their money handling skills. (neither is a business degree)

Michael Taft

Alex - I think we can define our different starting points. You premise is that the 'social welfare' is a safety net - not for the domestic economy. I don't agree. The welfare state is for all citizens and is the buttress of a modern economy. Free education, free health, earnings-related pensions - these are part of the welfare state that creates a strong, modern and social economy. Even in income supports - in most EU countries, unemployment benefit for the first six months to one year is earnings-related (but not here). This not only allows the individual to find a new job without a substantial decline in their living conditions, it also allows demand to be maintained in the economy. In this respect, this is an anti-recession instrument.

When one examines the EU Survey of Income and Living Conditions, we see that it is is the middle-income groups that have been hit hard by the cutbacks in social protection (unemployment benefit, family income support, etc.).

Social welfare and the welfare state raised the floor for all sectors - or it should. Unfortunately, in Ireland we are crashing the floor under the false idea that the welfare state is for the poor.

niall moran

Well it's little surprise that the unemployed are the latest 'folk devils', as Cohen puts it, as vested interests attempt to create moral panic around the issue of the provision of welfare. The comments of many on associated newspaper articles show just how effective this strategy is. Reference above to direct provision shows just how low some people in the country are willing to stoop.

While we're all worrying about how or how not the unemployed/public servants/immigrants are ruining the country, the architects of the recession further remove themselves from culpability and in many cases, prosecution.

ciaran

@ alex
"automatic stabilisers" google it. Ps your cant compare a national economy to a shop, or indeed a household. Apples and oranges. After all the givernment is in fact the largest employer in all advanced economies and so in a sense is its own best customer.

tells.it.like.it.is

@laura

"Where did the statistic of 35 euro per week on average on clothing come from for examnple?"

Nowhere.

However an average weekly spend of €36.11 on clothing by employed people came from the Household Budget Survey 2004/2005.

Do try to keep up!

"Even when I worked in Ballsbridge lunches were not 11 euro unless you went to a fine restaurant."

Nowhere in Tol's paper is it claimed that €11 is spent on lunch.

The number quoted is €49.10 for take-away food, which includes purchases in the evening, not just lunch. Richard Tol makes this point explicitly in his paper.

What, pray, were you working on in Ballsbridge?

Given your facility with numbers and reading comprehension, I'd guess the Property Load Risk Analysis Department in AIB. Am I right?

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